Giving and receiving feedback, empathizing with the perspectives of others, and fighting the guilt of putting yourself first. Samantha relates the motherhood experiences that have made her grow as a person and as a professional - from calendar management and prioritization, to conflict management and task delegation.
Samantha Pearlson is General Manager of South-East Asia Client Services at The Trade Desk, an advertising technology platform. She has long-standing experience in advertising and media, and a solid reputation as a leader in ad-tech. Recently, she was appointed Identity Council Member at the Interactive Advertising Bureau of Southeast Asia and India.
Samantha walks us through the process of discovering her son had ADHD and tells us how keeping a long-term perspective helps her handle the cultural pressure of being a present mother, while maintaining her individuality. We discuss the importance of building a feedback culture in the workplace to develop resilience as well as dealing with the reflection of yourself that children provide. When managing differences in parenting with her husband, she signals understanding each other’s perspective as the means to find a common ground.
To get in touch with Samantha, find her on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/sampearlson/
Don’t forget to head over to www.parents.fm to stay up to date with new and previous episodes, join our community of parents in tech or drop me a line. I’d love to hear from you!
Thanks for listening to the Parents in Tech podcast with me, your host, Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and build companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones, head over to www.Parents.FM to join our community of parents in tech. There, you can also drop me a question, idea, feedback or suggestion. See you next time!
Transcript
00:06
Qin En
Hi, I am Qin En. And this is the Parents in Tech podcast. Welcome to season one, where we interview mums who are technology company leaders based in Southeast Asia. We want to hear stories, hopes, challenges, and tips from moms who are raising kids while pursuing their career aspirations. In this episode, we speak to Sam. General Manager of client services at The Trade Desk. Sam has two decades of experience in advertising and media, and is widely regarded as a leader in ad tech. Recently, she was appointed as Identity Council Member at IAB Southeast Asia and India. Sam has a son, Alex, aged 7. And a daughter, Sasha, aged 3. Hi, Sam. Welcome to the Parents in Tech show. To begin with, could it tell us a bit more about your family?
01:04
Sam
Sure. I have a husband. His name is Andre. I have two kids, a seven-year-old boy called Alex and a three-year-old daughter called Sasha.
01:14
Qin En
Beautiful. Now, how do you explain your job to Alex and Sasha?
01:19
Sam
Mostly I don't. I've not been in the situation where I had to. I think because they're quite young still. But one thing my husband actually helped me with is, he told Alex that I was responsible for all the ads that showed up on YouTube. That was one way of teaching him about the world of advertising. I mean, I don't put ads on YouTube. I used to when I was in agency roles, but not so much anymore. But that's the closest we can get. He thinks I put ads on YouTube.
01:45
Qin En
Got it. Well, I guess for you and your husband to share that to Alex, he needs to know what YouTube is. Tell me a bit about that. Because that's a lot of debate, a lot of stories on screen time and children. And of course, they love it. But as parents we got to control it. How does that look like for you?
02:02
Sam
Good question. And you're right. There are so many different points of views, perspectives, opinions, and there are a lot of different articles on pros and cons on either side. Our decision with screen time and our kids was based upon what their future was going to look like. Their future is going to be very much centered around screens and computers. We didn't want to withhold that from them. We also didn't want to be exclusively open about it and just completely unstructured or no boundaries. What we wanted to do is just make it easily accessible so that they can take it or leave it. We all know that when we restrict something, you can't have it. So, you want it even more. We know that with kids. We keep sugar away from them and suddenly they get access to sweets. They will go crazy and eat the sweets until they feel sick.
02:52
Sam
We didn't want it to be a binge or nothing alternative. We often had the TV on in the background. But two and a half, he was interested in playing small games on the iPad and manipulating it and doing coloring in and drawing on the iPad. We've always kind of had it readily available, which is probably one end of a very broad spectrum.
03:15
Qin En
I'm curious on how that worked out. Because I completely agree with you. The more you tell kids not to do something, the more they want to do it. So, I’m really interested to know how you think it has worked out. Do you find that there were times where you had to step in to try to moderate a change? Or do you think overall they have been pretty disciplined and good about the amount of screen time?
03:34
Sam
I think the thing is both of my kids can take it or leave it. I noticed that quite early on with Alex. The TV would be on in the background. If we had some friends over with their kid who didn't have any screen time at all, Alex would watch a little bit and then he'd play with his toys. And he'd watch a little bit more than he'd play with his toys. Sometimes he'd walk away from it completely. But the other kid was transfixed. He is looking in the screen, wouldn't look away, wouldn't want to engage in anything else. That was really apparent that that was exactly what we wanted to achieve. We wanted it to be considered normal. It's there when you want it, but it's not the only option. It's an option out of a few. If we switch off the TV or it's time to do something else, there's never been a big meltdown. Because it's probably not long again until they can go back to it.
04:22
Qin En
Love that. So Sam, let’s zoom out a little and talk about your parenting styles. Now, you grew up in a very global kind of setting. Maybe talk us through that first. Your growing up years, the cultures you grew up in, and then we will move on to your parenting styles.
04:36
Sam
I was born in South Africa, in Cape Town. My entire schooling career was there. I left when I was 21 and I moved to the UK to be closer to my family. Spent around seven years in the UK with my sisters. My mum eventually moved over. So, there was a lot of family there as well. And then in 2011, wow, almost 11 years ago, I moved to Singapore. I have lived in quite diverse places. And I think having that exposure to so many different types of cultures, I think, has made me a lot more open-minded. Also, my husband is a different race. So, we have a true mixed-race family. So, inclusion and representation are very important to both of us, obviously for our kids' sake as well.
05:26
Qin En
So, let’s talk a bit about the different cultures that you grew up in, and of course, where your husband comes from. How did that shape up in the way you want it to be a parent?
05:36
Sam
In South Africa, there are so many different cultures. It's not a south African culture. And that mostly stems from the different race, profiles, the different heritage, groups. Just to give it some context, there are 11 official languages in South Africa, which just shows how diverse the population is. But my family was mostly British south African. So, we kind of grew up in probably a culture that's more closely aligned with British than it is with some of the other south African cultures. My husband grew up in a more mixed-race environment. In South Africa, during the apartheid era, there was a group that was labeled colored, which was a classification that in some parts of the world can be seen as quite racist. But it's an actual racial grouping that is still used to this day. Their ancestral heritage comes from such a mixed group of people. There is an Asian influence. There is a black African influence. There is a European influence. And it's made this really beautiful group of people in this community that is very diverse just on its own. My husband grew up in the colored community in South Africa. And while also growing up in a very religious family and with very strong connections to their Church and community, he was also quite passionate about fighting against the apartheid regime against the system in South Africa. He's a little bit older than I am. It's not something that was really prevalent in our family, which it's quite difficult to grapple with. It's like, why weren't my parents freedom fighters? Or why weren't they fighting against Apartheid? We were still very young and the changes start to come through. As I was in kind of late elementary school, I don't really remember what the apartheid times were like. But my husband has a lot more really vivid memories about that from his childhood. So, I think those two different cultural upbringings has really shaped who we are as people and as parents right now.
07:42
Qin En
So tell me, Sam. Was there a particular issue or viewpoint that perhaps you and your husband deferred on when it comes to parenting? And what was the issue and how did you go about resolving it?
07:54
Sam
I think the biggest one has been around discipline. My husband again comes from a very traditional background where he was disciplined. If something went wrong, he would get a hiding. While I had some of the discipline approaches in my childhood, something I really fight against now. I don't want to take that approach to my children. So, there was a real clash on how we would discipline our children. It's not something we spoke about ahead of time. It's just something that as it came up, he wanted to take a certain approach and I didn’t. And I was like, oh. I don’t know. How are we going to find this middle ground? It also was exacerbated by the fact that my son has been diagnosed with ADHD. Things that he felt needed discipline, actually just needed a different kind of approach to parenting. Because it wasn't something he was choosing to do. He wasn't being defiant because he wanted to push back. Because he knew better, there were different factors applied.
08:47
Qin En
Got it. How did those conversations look like in terms of working the issues out? Because I think that's valuable. Especially for newer parents who might be realizing at this point how different they are, especially when it comes to kids. Would love to hear what was your journey like.
09:03
Sam
It’s been quite messy. Some of it has been really constructive conversations. Some of it has been just screaming and shouting at each other and not seeing eye to eye at all and kind of going through the tunnel of disagreement and then coming around. And it's been really hard. It's not an easy journey. It's not something where we sat down and we're like, “Okay, all right. Well, I will compromise on this and you can compromise on that.” No. We both felt that we were right in a lot of it. It took us a lot of discussion, conversations and fights really to come around to a kind of meeting of minds. It's a work in progress even now.
09:38
Qin En
But maybe what’s one thing that you felt worked and gave you that progress?
09:41
Sam
Trying to see it from each other's perspective. And trying to just stop for a second and understand the history, the background, the intention behind each of our approaches. That was really what led us to having the most productive conversations. For example, there were times where he didn't feel like ADHD was even a real diagnosis, that it really existed. But yet our son had just been diagnosed. So, there was that difference. Instead of just being like, “No, it definitely does”, I started diving into literature around some of the thoughts, opinions and points of view of people in the field who do dispute the existence of ADHD and why. And he did the opposite. He started diving into more of the science behind the diagnosis and what it means now. It's not just a lazy diagnosis that's just fixed with medication. There's a lot more that goes into it. I think a lot of the way that ADHD has been treated in the past has given it quite a bad rep. But the big thing was us very uncomfortably entering into each other's perspective. It wasn't easy, but it really helped us to find that middle ground.
10:55
Qin En
Truly, I think standing in other people's shoes, easy to say, but I think especially when we have deep rooted views of our own, it can be so hard to achieve. Sam, I really appreciate your candidness about sharing that journey. Could you tell us a bit more about how for Alex, I guess, first you discovered ADHD? Because I think that's also something that is more common than one might expect. What did that look like in terms of the discovery process?
11:19
Sam
It started really when he was a toddler. He would lash out at friends, either in the classroom or friends that he was playing within the playground. He obviously was non-verbal, just a lot of boy toddlers usually are. In most of my experience and in my friend groups, the girls tend to be verbal a lot quicker than boys. We thought it was down to him being non-verbal, frustrated and that's kind of how he got things across. We then started to see more impulsive behavior showing up as he got older, more verbal. When he got into trouble for, throwing something or pushing somebody or pinching somebody. His response was, “I couldn't control my hands.” We kind of dug into that and started seeing an occupational therapist with him. Because we just instinctively knew that this is just more than some kid just acting out. It took us quite a few years because we had the suspicions at around 2 ½, 3. But you can't diagnose ADHD until about 6 or 7 because a lot of the behavior shows up in what would otherwise be considered quite normal learning behaviors.
12:24
Sam
So, it has been quite a journey. We have had additional support for him quite early on because we've been so open-minded about what it was. Initially, they thought it was just some sensory processing issues that he had, where he would be very physically inclined. And he has boundless amounts of energy and cannot sit still, always fidgeting, always interrupting conversations. He doesn't want to wait and have that patience. And if he wants something, it's very impulsive, very reactive straightaway. We dug into that with the occupational therapist and have moved from the sensory processing right into the formal diagnosis. But we're really lucky. Alex is really lucky as well because we've had a lot of support along the way and we've been very open to it as well.
13:08
Qin En
Yeah, certainly. But I want to understand here how did you feel along this journey? Because it can be exhausting. On one hand your career is on the rise. On the other hand, you had two young children. I would love to hear how did you feel about this.
13:22
Sam
It's very hard not to take something that is wrong with your child. It's hard not to take that personally. It's hard not to feel, what did I do? Did I do something? Did I eat something wrong when I was pregnant? Was I too stressed? Did I not spend enough time? It's hard not to question your choices and decisions that could have led to a particular outcome. So, I think that's been one of the hardest things. It's that feeling of responsibility and feeling that somehow, we've done something to let him down. That was a predominant feeling. But like I said, we've had really good support, not just for Alex, but for ourselves. And I think as part of balancing any career in tech or otherwise, with parenting, we need to have, I affectionately call them ‘The team’. There's the personal trainer, my coach, my therapist, my nutritionist, my GP and my gynae.
14:18
Sam
These are all people around that you can activate at certain points to help you. Just like you do at work. People who are better at certain things, you can activate for certain things and delegate to. I think we're really lucky to have that support structure and to be able to leverage a team of professionals. It's helped me manage those feelings along the way and not let it completely derail me. Because I need to be my best self in order to parent my children, run my job, be a wife and everything else that I need to. Even just being able to talk things through with your hairdresser can sometimes feel like therapy.
14:55
Qin En
Certainly. I would love to get to know your team a bit more, how you assembled this team. Let's start with therapist. That's something that I think, especially in Asian cultures with older generations can be seen as taboo. It's almost like, “You don't go to see a GP unless you're sick”, and likewise. Tell me a bit about that process. What was it like for you?
15:15
Sam
My journey to therapy started actually in my journey in coaching. I was at a particular place in my career where I was working for a company and I just had this niggling sense of dissatisfaction. But I couldn't put my finger on what it was that wasn't clicking. I wasn't feeling as passionate. I wasn't feeling as engaged and I couldn't quite figure out what it was that was leading to this. Because I loved the clients. I loved the people that I worked with. I thought we had a really good company, good morale. But something just wasn't working for me. It was through some conversations with friends that I got introduced to an executive coach who actually takes quite a therapy, kind of adjacent route to coaching or approach to coaching. I ended up having some formal sessions with her. And we agreed to do a program over a period of time.
16:12
Sam
Through that work that we did, we discovered that there was a values misalignment with me and the place that I was working at the time. Which then led to a whole new awareness in myself that I could then make positive steps towards change and ended up leaving that company. With this new awareness around my own personal values, I was able to find better aligning places after that. The coaching was something that has kind of always been with me throughout my career since then. But it's never been consistent. It’s something I dip in and out of as and when I need it. In the same way, that opened the door to therapy for me. So, therapy is not something that I'm always in, but if we want to break the cycles of history and our parents and just having that awareness on what cycles to break and how to break them, that's something I've, again, dipped in and out of as some things happened or as I've felt something or experienced something. It's made me question and dig into it. That's when I would activate my therapist.
17:20
Qin En
Thanks for sharing that. I fully agree. I myself also started therapy earlier this year and I realized there's so many unconscious biases, influences that our parents, our childhood has laid upon us. Sometimes we think, “Oh, I have overcome it. I'm different. I've done it.” But actually, no. A lot of it is still with us. So, I really appreciate that genuine and candid sharing Sam, you mentioned about coaching and when you needed to tap on it. So, how do know when you need it?
17:49
Sam
Usually when something new is about to happen or I'm facing a situation that I'm a little bit stuck on. So when I onboarded at The Trade Desk, when I started in my current role, just to help me level up my onboarding, I had a few sessions with my coach throughout that three month process just to kind of check in and take the temperature and just to work through some things with her. And then as I go through different things, at one point in my career, it was when I had received some negative feedback that I was not expecting. It was very constructive, but it was also incredibly hurtful. And as a senior leader, we should always be open to feedback and theoretically we all are. But then practically when it actually happens, it can still feel a bit bitey. But that happened. It really threw me more than I thought it would. So, that was a really good time to engage. I mean, at that point I engaged both my coach and my therapist at the same time, because that was a situation that really made me feel very exposed.
18:52
Qin En
Wow. Even when you are a senior leader, I think this whole idea of getting feedback, being open to it and training yourself to prevent a knee-jerk reaction from arguing or explaining the feedback, it is a skill. It takes practice. In terms of that, especially at the workplace, what kind of advice do you have around this whole idea of feedback? How can we make this work?
19:14
Sam
Like with anything, I think it's practice. Practice giving it and practice receiving it. If you can create a culture, true culture feedback, you can take the sting out of it by making it a little bit more ongoing and expected. I think if you save just the big things for feedback and everything else is just a comment and passing, then you've really missed an opportunity to build up a resilience and an expectation. Because I've had it explained to me in a really easy way. When the feedback is given to you, the personal feelings of being attacked or being criticized, that never goes away. That will never ever go away. I don't think you could ever build up a resilience to that initial like, “Ouch, but how can you say that about me? My intentions are completely something else.” But it's the time that it takes to get from, “Ouch, that really hurt my feelings” to, “Ooh, you might be right about something”, or “That's really interesting. I didn't see it from your perspective. Let's move on”, or “Let's find a way to work through it.” Distance between that first feeling in that second feeling, the length of time that it takes to get you from one to the other is where the maturity, the practice, the resilience starts to come in. Some people, it's a few seconds. But some people that need to take a couple of days to get over that feeling. And the more you build up that resilience towards receiving and giving feedback, because giving feedback can be equally as challenging. It's making that leap from “Ouch” to “Hmm. Okay, I see.”
20:46
Qin En
It is basically accelerating through the cycles. Almost like getting over that initial reaction and that most probably doesn’t feel great at all. But it's like, let's get past it and let's get to the real issue. So, let's take that back home. Feedback and growing as a parent. How has that looked like for you over the past seven years?
21:07
Sam
Well, I think your kids are really good at giving feedback. I mean, they tell you in real time what they like, what they don't like or how you made them feel. That's something that we've got to be prepared as parents to have the mirror held up. Because if they're not telling us directly, they're modeling what we're doing. Depending on the behavior, it can be quite hard to watch. It can be quite hard to see a child do something that you go, “Why are you doing that? That's not very nice.” Then you see your own behavior being reflected back to you for something. You could be snappy with the dog and then suddenly a child is shouting at the dog. And you're like, “Oh, but we love animals. We're very kind to animals.” It’s like, “Okay.” There are a lot of behaviors that we model on an ongoing basis. And that is fed back to us as parents in a very real way.
21:54
Qin En
Was there one particular thing that you had to start doing or stop doing as a result of this instantaneous feedback that our children give to us?
22:02
Sam
A lot of it has been around language. Obviously, there's the swear words that somehow kids seem to pick up before anything else. But also, how we talk to each other and how we talk about ourselves. My mum is visiting at the moment and she made a reference to losing weight. It was like, “Umm. No, we don't talk about that, especially not in front of the kids.” Because by talking about things that feel normal, we don't want to give them language or give them feelings about certain things that we wanted to protect them from. The biggest thing has been language.
22:35
Qin En
And it's so natural to us. I think that as adults, we know how to process it. When you use a swear word as a form of expression, it's usually not scolding someone. It's just a fun expression. My wife, Gladys, she does nag at me now and then when I use those words in front of our daughter, too. So, glad to know I'm not alone.
22:55
Sam
Yeah. You’re definitely not alone. But interestingly, it is the one thing that they'll say back. And they'll probably do it in the most inopportune, embarrassing times. Usually in front of a group of people or in the supermarket.
23:08
Qin En
Now, let me shift gears a little. What's one status quo about mums that you reject?
23:15
Sam
That we can have it all. Because I think as working moms, there's an expectation to work as though we don't have kids, and to parents as though we don't work. And also, to have friends and to maintain relationships with our family, with our husband, with people around us. And we're supposed to do everything really well. I think it's harmful to create the expectation that we should be good at everything at once and that we should have it all at one time. I think if you can balance it out and have a look at it from not a daily view, but rather from a weekly view. In the course of the week, was I good at my job on a few days? Was I a good parent on a few of those days? Because I know for a fact that there are going to be days where I'm not as good a parent as I am at work and vice versa.
24:00
Sam
Some days I'm going to have meetings that run late into the night. I'm going to miss bath time. I'm going to miss bedtime. I'm going to miss dinner time. It'll fall on either my husband or my helper to do the majority of the childcare on that particular day. That doesn't define who I am as a parent. That's one day. So instead of beating myself up about it in one day’s view, I'd rather look at it over a longer period of time. So, was I a good parent more often than I wasn't? And was I good at my job more often than I wasn't? If I'm coming in at reasonable averages, that's okay. It gives me an allowance to not be everything to everybody all the time.
24:36
Qin En
Yeah. It takes that pressure off that every single day I got to, like you said, do well at work, do well as a parent, get exercise in, just check off all those boxes. And that creates so much stress, such a pressure. It's just simply impossible. I like that idea of reviewing it at a week or even perhaps a few weeks at once and looking at it from that perspective. So on the topic of schedules, how do you go about managing schedules for you and your family?
25:03
Sam
Oh. My calendar is everything. I do not schedule absolutely every single minute, but I block out key things that I know are supposed to happen. Also, I delegate and I make sure that, hey, it's not all on me. That everybody in the family has a role. It has taken us a while to get there. It's probably still a bit of a work in progress, but we manage the expectations as a group. So as the families, my husband, now my mum, because she's staying with us for a few months and my helper. So, everybody knows who needs to be picked up what time, who's going to pick them up. Every morning, I look through my calendar to see, do I have an hour or half an hour here for a run? Or for a session in the gym? Because we've got to blend that in with our schedules as well. Just carefully, I think is the only way to kind of approach it. Carefully, in the moment. Don't be afraid to shift things up, to change them if needed. And again, activate the support structure. Delegate. Don't try and take on everything yourself.
26:05
Qin En
Indeed. It truly takes a village to raise a child. It also takes a village to support parenting. In terms of parenting roles and responsibilities, how do you think about that between you and Andre?
26:17
Sam
It’s fluid. It depends who needs what and when, and who they will get that from. A good example of that is if my son gets sick. If he gets a cold or if he has an upset stomach or something is wrong with him, it doesn't matter who we've decided is going to be with him, he wants me. That's when it doesn't matter what else is going on. I have to drop everything and be there. We did have numerous incidents that led to us changing the school run. Alex used to take the school bus in the morning to school. There was a bit of a bullying incident, some older kids on the bus. So, we decided that we were going to take him off that bus, that route. And my husband was going to drop him off at school every morning. That became something that was their time. Quality time, chats in the car on the way to school.
27:01
Sam
So, I think the roles and responsibilities have to be quite fluid. We both participate in things like discipline and accountability. We both do chores and we make sure that the children see that. It's not just on the helper to make sure that things are tidy. We have a strong sense of contribution in the house. Everybody has responsibilities. And because we both work, the children also see that depending on who has a more pressing meeting or a more important, and I say that in inverted commas, “more important” projects on the go at any given time that we can pivot and somebody will take up or pick up the slack.
27:38
Qin En
I think the fluidity, the flexibility, it’s important. But I think I love the part about you having your own special moments. I mean, granted not all are positive. For example, when the children are sick. But I think that it's nice to know that mom is always there for me whenever I'm ill, and likewise for the protected the time when Andre drops Alex off at school. It's so small moments, but I think that's what really matters at the end of the day.
Sam
Definitely.
Qin En
So thinking back over the past seven years, what would you say is the biggest challenge you've faced as a mum who also has career ambitions?
28:13
Sam
I think the biggest one has just been about making the time and fighting the guilt. Making the time to do both, well more often than not. And there is always guilt associated with taking time out for ourselves. One of the biggest compliments you can give a mother is to call them selfless. She’s so selfless. She gave everything to her family. She gave everything to her children. I mean, you actually think about what that means. That means that as a mother to lose yourself completely is the highest level you can attain? Something doesn't feel right about that. But it is so deeply ingrained in our culture, so many cultures that it's very hard to not feel the guilt and to feel how deep that goes. For example, Alex was five months old and I got called to China for a four-day long work trip. He was five months old. I went and we had a baby monitor that was tied to our phones. You can log in through an app. And I actually slept in the hotel with the baby monitor on next to me. So every time he woke up, I woke up. Because I just wanted to feel close and I felt really guilty for being away. Now it got a little bit easier over time, doing the business trips and knowing he was taken care of, he was fine. But there's always an element of guilt when we put ourselves first, even though we rationally know it's the right thing to do. So, I think that's always been the biggest challenge and it probably will continue to be.
29:51
Qin En
Certainly. It's almost that balance. On one hand, you want to take that time for yourself. You want to focus on what you do. But on the other hand, it always feels slightly like you're abandoning or you’re just not giving your fullest to them.
30:04
Sam
And we all know. It's always said, ‘Put your own oxygen mask on before you help someone else with theirs.’ And that's what's so contradictory. We know that's the right thing to do. Then why doesn't it feel right? At the same time, each of our working and parenting lives provide kind of a relief or respite from the other. It was Ruth Bader Ginsburg who first put it in those terms. She said, “My work as a lawyer, it gives me a respite from being a mother. And when I'm at home being a mother, it gives me a respite from my work as a lawyer.” And I really found that so refreshing that you can see the one as being a break from the other. So, you still have the time to enjoy both. But it's a constant struggle.
30:43
Qin En
It is. So I guess with COVID, at least that travel bit went away and you are home a lot more. Tell me, was it net positive net… I don't want to use the word negative, but were there more challenges than benefits? How was COVID like for you and your family?
30:59
Sam
It was quite challenging. Because well, with Alex particularly, Sasha was very young and it was easier with her. With Alex, because he is so physical. Because he needs that outlet. Also, because he was so connected to me, he would often be in the room with me while I was on meetings or on calls. So, that was quite challenging. I think we're still going through what the ramifications have been of that closeness. Because my mum is visiting us at the moment. My husband, at the beginning of second week of November, he went back to South Africa to visit his parents and to see his family because my mum was already here. And his mum, she's older. We haven't seen her. She's not doing so well. We haven't seen them in a while. He went to spend time there. I didn't realize how hard Alex was going to take that first trip away.
31:49
Sam
It’s the first time in two years that we've been separated as a unit. So, yes. There were challenging things around that time. But I think some of the biggest challenges we are still yet to see. And there were conversations he had with me in the evenings. He's like, “Do you think daddy's going to come back? Do you think he's going to like it there better than he likes it here with us?” I was not expecting this. Because this kid is seasoned. He's had us both going on business trips for the longest time. So, that was very surprising. What's made that whole situation even worse is that my husband ended up getting stuck in South Africa due to the travel restrictions. He's out of South Africa now, but he's spending some time somewhere else while he writes out the 14 days to come back to Singapore. And that has obviously further fed those feelings of abandonment that, “No. Of course, dad is coming back.” “Oh, actually, he's going to be delayed. We don't know when he’s going to come back.” So, that's been challenging. I think we have a world conference coming up in February that I'm terrified of going to. Because Alex and I are very close. I think me being gone is going to be a level up from having his dad going. Not that they're not close, but it's a different relationship. So, I think a lot of the challenges we are yet to face.
33:02
Qin En
Wow. Well, fingers crossed. Hopefully Andre is able to come back as quickly as possible with all that is going on.
Sam
Hopefully. Thank you.
Qin En
I am also shocked when you said that Alex asked, “Hey, is dad coming back?” Could you tell me how did you respond to them when you first heard that question?
33:17
Sam
First, I was very surprised. But then I just took a deep breath and just reminded him, “Of course, dad is coming back.” What we did, and this was at bedtime and Alex went to sleep and I really thought about it a lot, spoke to Andre and we agreed to do more facetimes, more phone calls. We even put together a little countdown calendar. So every evening before bed, we could mark off the day that had just been and just make it more real that this is the end date, this is when he's coming back. And just make Alex a part of that process. And just give that reminder every day. So, it's all about just how it's communicated, how connected he feels to his dad and just that constant reminder that he will be back. And that helped.
33:57
Qin En
Yeah. I think he never seizes to amaze me how creative parents can get. Even for example, like that simple countdown calendar. I think, yeah. It just creates a sense of hope in him as something to look forward to. They always say and I really believe that parents become more resourceful. And you become a better person when you become a parent.
34:15
Sam
Yes. You can become a better manager as well when you think about the differences or the similarities in managing a team and managing children. There's a lot around motivation and incentivization that can really trickle across to both.
34:28
Qin En
So, I've just got to jump on that. Could you tell me one thing, whether it’s motivation, incentivization that you felt like, hey, I'm doing this at work and I'm also doing this at home. It's kind of the same thing.
34:40
Sam
Calendar management and prioritization is definitely one. Sometimes it's helping to resolve conflict. I have had situations where there has been conflict in my team. Two people had a bit of an issue with each other and I approached it in a similar way as I would in the playground. So, you're going to tell us how you feel, then you're going to tell us how you feel. We're going to talk about it. We're going to say what we need to say. Then we're going to move on, kind of not holding a grudge and just being very factual. Also, I think not just with parenting but also as parents, sometimes we don't like being told what to do. So when I want my husband to do something or participate in something, or if I need to delegate something to him, I might do it in such a way that he feels that it was his idea. I just planted the seed.
35:25
Sam
And that's definitely something I use at work. So, it's also managing the household and making everything work together, understanding somebody's likes, dislikes and preferences. Because even if I need Alex to rush and do something quickly, I know shouting at him and saying, “Come! Let’s go”, he hates that. He likes to have a lot of warning. He likes to be prepared. It's a similar thing going into a meeting. You can't go in and just rush through it. You've got to understand who you're meeting with, how do they like to process information? What's the best way to provide an agenda or to run through a particular set of objectives and requirements? There are countless examples of where I see a crossover.
36:05
Qin En
So, that's transferability. So Sam, if there's one lesson you learned as a parent attack to some of our conversation today, what would that lesson be?
36:14
Sam
I definitely learned to go easy on myself. And it's not a lesson that I feel is done and dusted. It's something I continue to learn and develop, but I can take the time out I need. If I need to hop on a treadmill and do a run, I will lock the door so I don't get interrupted. Sometimes I hear little hands knocking down that door, but I finish my run and then I'll go back to it. I've gotten a lot better at giving myself a little bit of grace and a little bit of slack. Take that meeting, do that call and try and fight the guilt.
36:48
Qin En
That’s beautiful. Well, Sam. I've really enjoyed this conversation today. If some of our audience, especially moms who would love to connect with you, how can they best do so?
36:56
Sam
They can find me on LinkedIn. I check my messages fairly regularly and if anybody wants to have a more direct conversation, we can share details.
37:04
Qin En
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show. Sam, this was a really enjoyable conversation.
37:10
Sam
I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
37:16
Qin En
Thanks for listening to the Parents in Tech podcast with me, your host, Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and build companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones, head over to https://www.parents.fm to join our community of parents in tech. There, you can also drop me a question, idea, feedback or suggestion. Once again, the website is https://www.parents.fm. That's all for this episode, folks. See you next time.